The Adelaide Show Podcast putting South Australian passion on centre stage

217 – Of love and reason

Of Love And Reason - Leila Henderson and Lawrence Leung on The Adelaide Show Podcast

This week, Leila Henderson about love and Lawrence Leung about reason.

This week, the SA Drink Of The Week is from Reschke.

Nigel will try to stump us in IS IT NEWS on the topic of dating.

In 100 Weeks Ago we hear a snippet from two Adelaide music masters about our relationships with instruments

And in the musical pilgrimage … we hear another track from Hartway.

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Running Sheet: Of love and reason

00:00:00 Outtake
 Inappropriate questions
Theme and Introduction. Our original theme song in full is here, Adelaidey-hoo.
00:02:23 SA Drink Of The Week
2009 Reshcke Bull Trader Cabernet Merlot … tasting notes.

Done in the style of Little Red Riding Hood for the Cardinals Book Club.

00:08:40 Lawrence Leung
Lawrence Leung this week (He’ll be appearing at Fringeworld in Perth next).

Lawrence Leung on the Adelaide Show Podcast 217

00:35:26 Leila Henderson
Of love and reason, the ticking clock: I have no fewer than 3 girlfriends in their 40s who gave up on finding a suitable partner and decided to go it alone to become mums. We are talking about drop dead gorgeous women, all of whom run their own businesses. Main reason is commitment phobia by prospective partners. Do you reckon tinder etc creates the illusion that there will always be another one along in a minute?
This post spawned a long debate on Facebook and this person’s comment sums up why we have Leila Henderson here tonight (of Newsmaker fame). What an amazing subject.
Some of the following excerpts from Leila’s original post are discussed in the interview.

K (female): An increasing proportion of single women seem resigned to the fact that they only need a bloke for sperm as many are suited to little else.
O (male) replied: Kay, Respectfully, the same thing could be said in reverse.There is a saying where I come from, not all round objects constitute an orange.

Leila Henderson knows me somewhat, and even though I might only be considered as a sperm donor to my ex-wife, my hero who was the result of that single sperm reminds me daily that I have fulfilled my duties to humanity in more ways than just donating sperm. I choose to be who I am. My heart is the master of my destiny not my penis.
J (male): For context, I’ve been with my mrs for 10 years and have no idea how tech romance works.  I think apps like tinder are for instant gratification not long term. Our society is growing really impatient and entitled….doing a long term relationship requires lots of patience and deliberate effort from both sides. For your lady friends, it’s better to do it solo than with a half assed dude. My mom raised me solo and coz she couldn’t comprise of the kind of man she wanted. Plus us single mum kids tend to turn out alright.
Leila replied:  Tinder is actually not that bad – especially overseas but here also, I’ve found the majority of men I’ve dated wanted to be in a relationship. In fact they wouldn’t have got to the coffee stage if that hadn’t been the case. Church is an excellent place to meet because at least you know you have the same values
J replied: I am certainly not qualified to comment on apps for sure….never used one. Church or similar places where people with common interests and values congregate on an ongoing basis certainly are certainly a great place to meet people. I met my wife in church and we were mates for a long time before we ever became an item. Am convinced there is no woman on this planet can measure up to my wife.
Z (female): I don’t know what tinder is but I know men are not a challenge to any successful woman. I teach this to my daughters, do what YOU want in life, put you and your career first, there will always, always be a man there chasing you.
Leila:  It’s not a lack of men chasing – it’s a lack of men whom you would want to father your children and that want to father your children

K (female):Definitely [tinder creates the illusion of another one coming along]. We’re a society addicted to instant gratification… constantly on the hunt for something better. Sigh 

L (female): It’s a really interesting topic Leila. Obviously I can’t comment based on experience – I’ve been married 35 years… but from observations, many men in this age group are still caught up in the “provider” stereo-type, and with that comes the expectations of a subservient woman who needs him to survive. Clearly these women are not that. Does it threaten their ego’s? Yes, I think it does. Look, I know that’s a really broad sweeping generalisation, but like I said, it’s from observation. Relationships are so different today, and I guess the instant availability of choice (via dating sites) makes people want to keep their options open. What are your friends looking for? Maybe there is a common denominator there? I think as women have gained more independence, self-confidence and financial stability, more men seem confused as to their role in society. Not surprising I suppose, given that a whole lot has changed for them in a relatively short period of time. The other issue is time. Independence and financial stability comes with its own baggage. Leisure time is not what it once was… Opportunities to relax, go out with friends (that doesn’t include networking) and generally just enjoying life, seem to have lessened. How many people belong to social groups these days? Or take part in socially competitive sports? When I was younger, this was how you met other like-minded people. I don’t envy single people today… I think I would struggle under these conditions.

G (female):At 40 + there’s often baggage and lots of compromising. Many single, successful people both male and female find compromising a hard pill to swallow. Plus past experiences can influence how you react to certain things. By 40 most people I imagine would have had several relationships that obviously didn’t work – that’s quite a dossier and big shoes to fill. I’m not surprised. I have a friend who specialises in couples therapy. He is single and can’t retain a relationship. What does that tell you. Do what I say not what I do.
That’s really what is happening and the old ‘left it too late’ – we used to only know people in a confined geographic area and ‘made do’
G again:
True, but also when you’re younger you’re experiences are fewer so your expectations aren’t as high. You either grow together and stay together or you part, but then you end up a 40s+ statistic and don’t want to compromise. Is searching farther afield going to make a difference. People are the same the world over-isn’t that what they say. The grass isn’t always greener.
I agree on all you’re saying – if I knew then what I know now, I would still be married!
G again:
It’s never too late though we were at dinner last night with a girlfriend 70 this year and her new friend who is also 70 -knew each other years ago at uni. Lovely guy. Hope they enjoy each other’s company and it works for them.
A (male): Leila,
that’s why I said spread your wings! Nearly all my 40+ male friends (myself included of course) are marrying women from different cultures. It is quite wonderful, not only do you do the usual dating stuff but you get learn a new language and embrace a whole new world that you never knew existed. I can’t recommend it enough … you need to go on more adventures to exotic places and see what happens Having watched my step mother marry my father 6 Nov 1974 then divorce him a few years later then remarry after 19 years then divorce him again 40 years after the first time at their respective ages of 68 and 84, saying that she “needs to be strong”. It’s not all about men. I think that both men and women need a lot of help in learning how to communicate with loving respect, empathy and compassion.

D (male): Haven’t tried it yet but I hear Social8 works for some people.

K (female):I think the fear of commitment is mutual, otherwise, those beautiful ladies would have a nose for a committed man ???? just an opinion from my experience, when I was busy establishing my office, committing was the last thing I would ever think of. This always lead me to chose partners I know deep inside they are temporary.
Leila: My girlfriends might well agree and
they probably wouldn’t argue, they didn’t realise how hard it would be…

B (male):it’s simple, most women/men post 40’s have had their life turned inside out by an ex……you’ll find they would have given 100%+ of their heart in a relationship…..once the heart has been torn apart the percentages drop markedly because “we” don’t want round 2 to be worse than round 1
Leila: Too true
B again: I take my hat off to anyone who gives 100% in round 2……..

P (male): There is an “Adelaide thing” when it comes to dating demographics because so many women aged 24-25 leave to pursue careers an come back to Adelaide later in life. As percentage more women then men leave, but the men come back later in life too. This leads to a statistically significant gender imbalance in Adelaide with there being 5-7% fewer single women 25-35 than there are men which then reverses it self in the 40-50 ager groups Some dating sites like OKcupid and RSVP published some interesting stats on all this a few years ago and the effect this had on the “market” and how differently the remainers and returnees saw themselves.
S (male): Ah, 40. I remember that age. Old enough to have suffered a few disappointments, not old enough to know it doesn’t matter. Maybe women at that age should be looking at younger men. I haven’t dated any young men so I don’t know what they’re like, but they should have several advantages over men over 40: more likely to have a more enlightened attitude to women; less baggage; more malleable; fitter; better sperm. My guess is Tinder is a symptom of the times. We’re all encouraged to seek perfection and to expect it to be easy.
S (Male):Lot of sexist comments here. Aren’t we more advanced than to predictably lump all men or women into some dumb stereotype?
There are plenty of views on offer here – I am happy to hear them even if they’re not politically correct. Plus there are unalienable facts that just aren’t PC. I meet a lot of men who are on their second go around having a second set of children with very young women.
S again: Men have a phobia about commitment…. bloke is suitable for little else than his sperm… men seek physical perfection while women seek sharing responsibilities and life space…. yes I’ve read them…. sexism is alive and not so well. And predictable
Leila: Hey S, we’re talking about real life examples not gender issues. I speak to men ALL THE TIME and they ALL tell me that LOOKS are top of the list! They have even said things to me such as “it’s a pity you are so short” !!! The ones that do this are often NO OIL PAINTING. I just laugh and laugh.
S: You’re short? Never realised. And they care?
Leila: I am talking about SOME men but I can tell you that men often say to me “Thank god women aren’t as shallow as men (who judge on looks) or I’d never get a date!” and when I told another of my male friends and asked why is this so he said “I don’t make the rules…” 🙂
M (male): Clearly, there are primal, subconscious, visual cortex, facial recognition at play. eg it has been said that Ancient Egyptian Queen Nefertiti’s famous facial bust reputedly fits the precise mathematical geometry of a beautiful woman. Clearly Tinder and associated social media are facially based.
A (female): I too, know 4 girlfriends who are in a similar situation. I’ve not been on Tinder but have been told that it does create that illusion. X
Leila: Don’t do it – unless you want a laugh!
A: No chance of going on it or any other dating apps. I was on one five years ago and after three months was put off forever
S (male): An hour listening to popular music will tell you what people want: someone to share their life with. But expecting it to be forever is probably unrealistic. How many friends do you have that you want to be around every day? Commitment to a long term relationship is a huge ask. Friendship is much easier.
R (male): Exactly, monogamy is overated and possibly outdated.From Science Illustrated…”researchers’ models predict that the process began when lower-ranked males started using the alternative strategy of provisioning to woo potential suitors. It developed further by the evolution of female choice and high fidelity. As the system grew more popular all the males, except for those few highest ranked in the hierarchy, would have been using the new behaviour to court their future companions. The females would have become more responsive to those highly caring, protective males and less taken by the most aggressive and dominating ones.”
M (Male): Personally, having only ever proposed marriage twice, I don’t see myself doing so again, too old and tired to be bothered messing around with others’ emotions like that anymore …
A (female): I think all dating apps are a numbers game meet/coffee/decision or if you just want sex meet/sex and move on
S (male): Do you remember when we were young: you’d meet someone and there’d be some instant chemistry between you, and before you knew it there’d be clothes all over the floor and you’d be “at it”. Somehow we seem to lose that as we get older. Maybe we’re just overthinking it?
J (male): We are all individuals-abolish the Marriage Act I say – She Loves me, She loves me not etc
M (male): Yes, I agree with you Jim! I think that the marriage Act is another antiquated nonsense that people simply aren’t truly informed about before consenting
K (female): It makes it even more difficult now with many (young and fertail) females in particular still wanting a “one and only” for a long enough time to have a family. Its a rare woman who could set herself up to change partners every few years and still be happy to have a family- then there’s the splitting of kids between families. For older people I think it’s fair to change more frequently to whatever limit the pairs wish. I’ve never used a dating service and thik they are a bit dumb. Random assignment on similarities in interests and backgrounds would be a good way to get started. Wish Lists are ridiculous. I don’t think you can click with some if you have to project your own idea of who they are onto them! Farcical! Finding a new partner is about genuine curiousity.
M (male): I don’t know that Tinder exclusively is guilty. I remember Connections in the now-defunct News (or ‘Tiser?). That was a free-for-all both ways. I met my first long-term partner there. Then internet dating came along and it was kid-in-a-candy-store stuff. You could (still can?) say “looking for intimate” meaning intimacy, not necessarily relationship, and it worked gloriously. I imagine current apps make it yet more direct and immediate. I think both males and females into or past their 40s would be thinking they no longer want to ‘start a family’ having already created one. They’re looking forward to the freedom to travel light, no more school runs or getting stuck into their businesses without the ‘burden’ of children. Most likely the ideal pairing is a non-father (never had kids) meeting a non-mother… and of course they’re out there. Maybe specifically write “Never-had-kids-female seeks to meet similar man…”.
Leila: Yes, that is the rub 🙂 no pun intended. And yes I did not mean specifically tinder but rather the availability factor. I had some hilarious encounters on Connections. Including the guy who turned up in full makeup.Or the one who said incredulously “You know people have actually said straight to my face that I’m boring!” just as i was nodding off.
D (female): I keep sayin a dog and a vibrator is all you need and a good gay friend for a handbag and a shoulder to cry on . Now I can feel the animosity filling the airways ,lol Maybe the odd visit to Port Lincoln where there’s a surplus of men.
Leila: That’s because you don’t need all of the above – there is no substitute for the real thing
D: Sweetheart I ‘v been married for 47 years and don’t know why you all want this! Of course I’m kidding ????.Remember it doesn’t come easy though and I think a lot of issues with women are control issues on both sides.It doesn’t get easier ever, yes there is someone forever in your corner ( hopefully) but privately challenges you every step of the way .” I’m just trying to protect you “, I’m just trying to save you the hurt” etc.
M (male): I watched this TED Talk and thought you would find it interesting. It is by Anjan Chatterjee: How your brain decides what is beautiful. In short, symmetry plays a role, but he also talks about hormones. He says what men look for elements in women: youth and maturity (too baby-faced and the woman might not be fertile). Men look for large eyes, full lips, and narrow chins as signs of youth and high cheek bones as signs of maturity.
Leila: Weird – people seem to assume that my post was saying the women aren’t attracting men. They are attracting men. It’s just that the men don’t want children when push comes to shove. So to speak. If I say what i really think i will be booed out of town. So I’ll shut up.
B (male): Write a post about business: ~15 comments. Make a post about tinder: 150+ comments and counting.
01:51:15 Is It News?
Nigel Dobson-Keeffe challenges the panel to pick the fake story from three stories from South Australia’s past.

Port Augusta Dispatch June 1900
If a man’s first wife has been tall, depend upon it his second one will not be a dwarf, says a man who claims to have studied the matter, It has long been a matter of general belief, says the Family Doctor, that big men usually fall in love with small women, and vice versa ; but for all that marriages between giants are by no means uncommon. Most of these unions are, however, mainly for show purposes, and probably in many instances the tall husband, if he had not been influenced by some such consideration, would have chosen a bride much smaller his size. Dwarfs are also likely to marry tall women, but they do not run in the same extremes as the giants do in their love affairs. Bookshop “skinny women” are not, however, generally credited with inspiring the tender passion, except, perhaps in the ample breasts of the living obese, but in these eases it may safely be assumed that the love is seldom mutual. To a somewhat modified extent the rule about big and little may be said to apply to the feelings entertained by women towards men ; but in these cases for the present, at all events—woman’s choice is limited, since she is obliged by custom to wait for what may come, whereas a man is free to pick and choose (perhaps) as lie likes ; doubtless, however, this is another one of woman’s disabilities that will be remedied in the future.

News March 1950
Say women stay single by choice
Four prominent Adelaide people said today most of the women who remained single did so because they had given themselves to a career, or a certain way of life with which marriage would interfere.
They were commenting on a statement made by father of five, Dr. Lindsey Batten, a London doctor. Addressing an education conference on Sunday Dr. Batten said, "Many of the best women
remain single because “fools of men” take the chocolate box, the Hollywood film, and the fashion plate as the standards of beauty. An Adelaide educationist said Dr. Batten’s statement was too
sweeping. Many fine women felt they had a mission in life other than marriage. Their ideals kept them single. They devoted themselves to their chosen career.

News February 1952
Women: What surplus?
“What surplus of women?” said some attractive Adelaide girls when asked to comment on the latest vital statistics for South Australia and the fact that today is the day that makes it a Leap Year.  Figures show that, although Australian men outnumber women by 9,000, South Australia is the only State where-women are in the majority-by 3,000. About half of the Adelaide women interviewed today said they found it hard to believe there was a surplus of women in this State. Many thought the reverse was the case. Dark-haired Miss Dolores Sciberras, of Adelaide, an usherette at a city theatre was amazed when she heard about the 3000 surplus of women. She said, I really can’t believe it. Every day I see men in fours and fives attending picture shows, but I rarely see a girl unescorted.

02:01:46 100 Weeks Ago
In 100 Weeks Ago, we revisit James Capatch, a woodwind instrument repairer at Capatch Woodwind and Jordan Reynolds, a guitar maker from The Sound Garage, and we catch the bit in our conversation in which we explore how deeply connected humans get to instruments, and how instruments might actually be a helpful communication tool for some!
02:06:24 Musical Pilgrimage
And our song this week is Warm Rocks by Hartway, selected by our musical curator, Todd Fischer.

This week we have local duo Hartway returning to the show with their smooth, jazz-infused house music. Conor and Jack joined forces in 2016 with the vision of creating soulful electronic music mixed with organic elements. The song I’m playing for you this week, Warm Rocks, shows a great example of these organic elements with a beautiful rolling percussion created by the use of what sounds like those rocks people use for hot stone massages. Maybe that’s part of the reason why this song gives me such a relaxing vibe. The rolling texture contrasts beautifully with the more glitchy main beat and seductive sax melodies. It really reminds me of some of the textures Shlohmo creates in his music.

Hartway’s other influences include the likes of FKJ, Flight Facilities and Touch Sensitive and their lives shows feature their signature sax, keys and bongos. Since being crowned as the 2017 winners of the Fresh Producer’s Series, they are living up to every expectation of having “enormous promise”, as dubbed by the likes of local legends Luke Million and Oisima. Hartway’s feel-good single ‘Beyond featuring Lesley Williams’ saw high radio rotation and landed in Fresh’s Vital 25 chart for six consecutive weeks in a row.

I highly recommend checking out the rest of their EP ‘Motions’ as it is one of those records where all the songs work really well together and you can just chuck it on and listen straight through. It is a really consistent and polished product. In saying that, Warm Rocks is probably the most unique song on the EP and I think that’s part of the reason why it jumped out to me on first listen.

If you want to see Hartway live, then there is one AMAZING opportunity coming up as they are apart of an absolute monster lineup at a festival called Root Down. It is on the 28th of October at the Old RAH on North Terrace and features so many of Adelaide’s best acts including Luke Million, Timberwolf, Bjear, Donnarumma, Dyspora & Playback 808… plus many more.

02:16:09 Outtake
 I’ve assumed the position … have either of you got an instrument … I don’t want sex tonight

Here is this week’s preview video:

SFX: Throughout the podcast we use free sfx from for the harp, the visa stamp, the silent movie music, the stylus, the radio signal sfx, the wine pouring and cork pulling sfx, and the swooshes around Siri.

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