Associate Professor Bastien Llamas from the University of Adelaide’s School of Biological Sciences dismantles the science behind recent “de-extinction” claims about dire wolves while exploring the ethical implications of reviving extinct species, accompanied by a Professor Flint musical pilgrimage that confronts extinction with both gravity and hope.
Adelaide’s scientific community wades into the global conversation about de-extinction as Associate Professor Bastien Llamas from the University of Adelaide’s School of Biological Sciences and the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA brings cool-headed expertise to recent claims about dire wolves being “brought back from extinction.” What began as scientific curiosity became urgently relevant when Steve overheard his teenage daughters excitedly discussing how “wolves aren’t extinct anymore and mammoths will be back soon” – highlighting the real-world consequences of misunderstood science.
The SA Drink Of The Week segment isn’t included in this episode, as our focus remains squarely on the fascinating scientific ground being covered, from the definition of true extinction to the uncomfortable realities of dropping long-gone predators into modern ecosystems.
In the Musical Pilgrimage, we’re treated to Professor Flint’s Rumble Rumble, a song about the Permian extinction that carries a message of both disaster and hope – perfectly complementing our exploration of extinction, science communication, and the resilience of nature given sufficient time.
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Running Sheet: Making De-extinction Claims Extinct
00:00:00 Intro
Introduction
00:00:00 SA Drink Of The Week
No South Australian Drink Of The Week, this week.
00:02:52 Assoc. Prof. Bastien Llamas
Winter isn’t just coming, apparently it arrived in October last year when Colossal Biosciences announced they’d successfully “de-extincted” the dire wolf after a 10,000-year absence. Now, for anyone watching the news or scrolling through social media lately, you might think you’ve stepped into an episode of Game of Thrones—and the connection is no coincidence, with George R.R. Martin himself serving as a “cultural adviser” to this company. I first caught wind of this story through our good mate Michael Mills, better known to many South Aussie school kids as Professor Flint, who was absolutely scathing about these claims. And I’ll admit, I thought exploring this topic might be a bit of scientific curiosity until I was driving my teenage daughters recently, and overheard them chatting excitedly about how “cool it is that wolves aren’t extinct anymore” and that “mammoths will be back soon too.” That’s when I realised we needed some cool-headed expertise on the subject.
With us today is Associate Professor Bastien Llamas from the University of Adelaide’s School of Biological Sciences and the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA. Bastien’s work on ancient DNA and human adaptation to environmental and cultural stressors puts him in the perfect position to help us understand what’s actually happening with these de-extinction claims. Welcome.
The interview opens amid the cultural echoes of Game of Thrones, with Steve noting how Colossal Biosciences has seemingly found a “middle ground” in the stark binary of winning or dying in the game of thrones – by claiming to resurrect dire wolves after a 10,000-year absence. This connection is no coincidence, with George R.R. Martin himself serving as a cultural advisor to the company.
“If it looks like a dire wolf and it howls like a dire wolf, it’s… well, a dire wolf for the sake of PR purposes,” Steve observes, setting the stage for Bastien to methodically dismantle the scientific validity of these claims. The discussion begins with fundamentals, as Bastien explains what extinction actually means from a scientific perspective: “The extinction process is really the total disappearance of a particular species from the surface of the earth.”
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Bastien addresses the technological impossibility of true de-extinction: “To de-extinct means literally bringing back individuals from that very species to life… if that extinction happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, it means that we would need to have intact cells from these particular individuals. And through some cloning technologies, be able to create an embryo… Now we’re talking about science fiction.”
When pressed on the ecological reality of reintroducing extinct species, Bastien paints a vivid picture of the challenges: “If a species got extinct in the first place, it’s very likely because there were some factors — environmental change or human overkill — that means the world has slowly changed to the point where that species was not adapted to their environment.” His specific example about dire wolves resonates with practical concerns: “A nice big cow would probably be a great prey for that wolf. And I am just waiting for the reaction of the farmers.”
The scientific breakdown of Colossal’s claims is particularly enlightening, with Bastien revealing that dire wolves and grey wolves split evolutionarily 5.7 million years ago: “For 5.7 million years, they evolved differently. Dire wolf became those big whoopy canid, um, you know, hypercar, the gray wolves were more adaptable, uh, smaller size, and a diet that was a little bit more diverse.” This evolutionary divergence created approximately 12.5 million genetic differences, yet Colossal made only 20 genetic changes to grey wolves. “Twenty changes out of 12.5 million is nothing,” Bastien emphasises.
The interview takes a philosophical turn when Steve asks about the one motivation that might have ethical value – atonement for human-caused extinctions. Bastien thoughtfully responds, “Even atoning for that doesn’t mean that we’re going to change our behaviors,” noting that such technology might create a dangerous sense of complacency about current conservation challenges.
Perhaps most powerfully, Bastien offers an analogy that crystallises the issue: “If we take a chimp and we introduce 20 changes in the genome of the chimp, so it loses the hair, for example, and the shape of the skull is modified… would we consider that genetically engineered chimp a human?” The answer is clearly no, undermining the claim that genetically modified grey wolves are actually dire wolves.
The conversation closes with wisdom about critical thinking, with Bastien suggesting that while we should allow ourselves to be amazed by scientific headlines initially, we must follow with critical reflection: “You need to let it go. At first you need to be amazed. You need to be curious. You need to be dreaming a little bit. But then once that first phase is over, you need to sit down a little bit and think about really what the information is about.”
In the interview, we mention that Steve has previously interviewed Bastien on another podcast, This Medical Life. Here is the link to that episode: Episode 75: Ancient DNA | Humans and Neanderthals
00:51:09 Musical Pilgrimage
In the Musical Pilgrimage, we feature Rumble Rumble by Professor Flint.
This is a song about the Permian extinction, known as The Great Dying, in which 96% of all life was wiped out. It reminds us of the fragility of nature, and the impermanence of all things. It also reminds us of nature’s resilience. While it took millions of years to recover, given the chance, and time, nature was able to recover, and we enter the remarkable Age of Dinosaurs. The death of some, allows for the evolution of others.
Michael Mills, the man behind Professor Flint and HeapsGood Music, is highlighted as someone gaining popularity by “staying true to the science” – a refreshing counterpoint to the misleading headlines discussed throughout the episode. Steve shares exciting news about Michael’s upcoming performances at the Lyme Regis Fossil Festival in the UK (making history as the first Australian to grace that stage), as well as his Commonwealth National Science Week grant supporting “The Ammonites,” an all-female dinosaur-loving supergroup touring across Australia this August.
Here’s this week’s preview video
There is no video this week.
SFX: Throughout the podcast we use free SFX from freesfx.co.uk for the harp, the visa stamp, the silent movie music, the stylus, the radio signal SFX, the wine pouring and cork pulling SFX, and the swooshes around Siri.
An AI generated transcript – there will be errors. Check quotes against the actual audio (if you would like to volunteer as an editor, let Steve know)
413-The Adelaide Show
[00:00:00] Steve Davis: Hello, I’m Steve Davis and welcome to episode 413 of the Adelaide Show Podcast. You know, when you play the Game of Thrones, you win or die. There is no middle ground. I. Now that’s what we learned from the TV series. But, uh, colossal Biosciences has sort of found a middle ground. So they claim, they say that three pups that were born recently are dire wolves that featured in the, the stories, the program.
[00:00:32] But they’re not really, they’re actually just gray wolves with genetic edits intended to make them look like the lost species. You know the saying, if it looks like a di wolf and it, hows like a di wolf, it’s well, a dire wolf for the sake of PR purposes. Um, we actually get to the bottom of this with associate professor Basian yamas from the University of Adelaide’s School of Biological Sciences and the Australian Center for Ancient DNA.
[00:01:00] It is a fascinating chat. You know, I take him down some side, side roads as well, but, uh, we really lay the science bare and it’s, it’s, there’s a lot to think about with the notion of bringing extinct animals back to life, if that was ever possible. Um, also in the musical pilgrimage, we’re gonna go out, uh.
[00:01:23] On extinction as the theme of our final song, it’s by Professor Flint. It carries a message of disaster and hope, which anything talking about extinction should enjoy.
[00:01:42] Theme Song: We.
[00:02:07] Lady
[00:02:11] Caitlin Davis: in the spirit of reconciliation, the a H Show podcast acknowledges. The traditional custodians of country throughout South Australia and their connections to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.
[00:02:33] Theme Song: That lady.
[00:02:52] Steve Davis: Well, winter isn’t just coming. Apparently it arrived in October last year when Colossal Biosciences announced they’d successfully de extincted the dire wolf after a 10,000 year absence. Now, for anyone watching the news or scrolling through social media lately, you might think. That you’ve stepped into an episode of Game of Thrones and the connection is no coincidence with George RR Martin himself, serving as a cultural advisor to the company.
[00:03:23] Now, I first caught wind of this story through our good friend of the podcast, Michael Mills. He’s better known to many South Aussie school kids as Professor Flint, and he was absolutely scathing about the claims that were being made. And I admit, I thought we’d explore this topic. It’ll be a nice bit of scientific curiosity until I was driving my teenage daughters, uh, recently, and I overheard them chatting excitedly about how cool it is that the wolves aren’t extinct anymore and that mammoths will be back soon.
[00:03:57] And that’s when I realized. We actually do need some cool-headed expertise on this subject. And so with us today on the Adelaide Show, we have associate Professor Basian Yamas from the University of Adelaide’s School of Biological Sciences, and the Australian Center for Ancient DNA, uh, bastion’s work on ancient DNA and human adaptation to.
[00:04:19] Environmental and cultural stresses, um, puts him in a perfect position, I think, to help understand what’s actually happening with these de-extinction claims. Basian, welcome to the Adela Show and thanks for inviting me, Steve. Now, I have spoken to you recently on this Medical Life podcast, so it’s wonderful that our, our lives have crossed twice.
[00:04:41] Um, before we get into these recent claims about the dire wolves, though, I do think we need to ground ourselves just a bit and start with some basics. What does extinction actually mean from a scientific perspective and, and what would be genuinely required for something to be de extinct? The
[00:05:00] Bastien Llamas: extinction process is really the total disappearance of a particular species from the surface of the earth.
[00:05:08] Um, in a sense, it is happening regularly, um, over the time of life. Evolution on Earth started millions of years ago, and it keeps happening at an accelerated rate, uh, right now because of, of human activity, fragmentation of habitat, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so in essence, extinction really means what it means.
[00:05:31] It is the, the fact that a species at some point might dwindle to the point of not having any single individual left, um, to procreate and, and, um, have babies and, and keep the species going. And so how do you then de extinct? So, and that’s where there’s a little bit of a debate lately. Because to de extinct means literally bringing back individual for them from that very species to life.
[00:06:04] Um, of course, if de extinction is last year, there’s a chance that we may have some embryos frozen somewhere, um, in a zoo or something. And we may be able to, um, have babies born from these embryos, but if that extinction happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, it means that we would need to have intact cells from these particular individuals.
[00:06:36] And through some cloning technologies, be able to, um, create an embryo that we then developed and then create, um, end up in, in individuals. Now we’re talking about science fiction. Now we’re talking really about the limits of what can be done, because unfortunately, those cells, even in the best preserved samples, let’s say you have a frozen mammoth, okay?
[00:07:02] In the permafrost of Russia. And the DNA and some molecules in that cell that look like it’s intact is in fact very degraded. And that means that the odds of being able to revive that cell and create an embryo, et cetera, are just gone. So de-extinction is, um, a, a, a great idea if you want, uh, from a scientific point of view, it’s extremely stimulating to think about ways to.
[00:07:34] You know, recreate an entire individual from a species that got extinct years ago. But technologically, it’s very, very, very challenging. And we are not there yet. I’m sure we’re going to discuss all these challenges right now.
[00:07:53] Steve Davis: We will get to that, but I, I do wanna talk about the ecological reality. Okay.
[00:07:58] We’ll put the. Science fiction aside for a moment. If we were somehow able to bring a species like the dire wolf back, they’d be returning to a world that was very different from the one they left 10,000 years ago. From, from your understanding, what happens when you drop a previously extinct animal into an ecosystem that’s moved on without them?
[00:08:24] Bastien Llamas: Yeah, I guess we need to be aware that if a species got extinct in the first place, it’s very likely because there were some factors, um, involved in that environmental change or human over kill, whatever that factor could be really, um, means that the world has slowly changed to the point where that species was not adapted to their environment and this is why they got extinct.
[00:08:53] So that means, of course the corollary of that is that if you de extinct species in a world that has changed so much that the habitat is not at all where they used to be. Um, the. The, the, the ecosystem has changed as well. I mean, each species is part of a food chain, and if you change the food chain, there’s a high chance that the whole food chain is going to be impacted.
[00:09:19] So let’s say in the case of the diet wolf, we have a HyperC animal here, a top predator really, that was probably fitting on very big animals, horses, bison, even maybe mammoth. None of these are free roaming. In the places where the Diol used to live, which was not America done actually to the northern parts of South America, there’s too many humans around.
[00:09:46] There’s too many farm. There’s very little natural habitats left with this kind of praise. So what would the Dar wolf there do there? And probably create a lot of issues, to be honest, in terms of, um, hunting or other hunting, um, rays in those particular natural habitats. And we probably also encroached on farms and national parks where some of those.
[00:10:12] Bra could exist as well. I mean, a nice big cow would probably be a great prey for that wolf. And I am just waiting for the reaction of the farmers, you know, uh, in this case, uh, what that means is that if you bring those animals back to life, you need to think about the fact that the behavior, the habitat.
[00:10:36] Um, all things that have, I’m sorry. We don’t know anything about the behavior as a start. Good point. And
[00:10:42] Theme Song: then,
[00:10:42] Bastien Llamas: yeah, and the habitat has changed. So what are the odds that they’re going to actually survive the mites, let’s say they survive, but they will create some side issues basically that will have an impact, an ecological impact that we can’t plan.
[00:11:00] Okay. It was a great idea to introduce a canto to eat insects in the, some parts of Australia. Well, look what the result is. Now. We can’t really plan for that. We, we don’t understand exactly how these, you know, trophic chains and all of the, the, the ecology works all the time.
[00:11:19] Steve Davis: And it’s an unnecessary complicating factor because we already experience in Africa, India, et cetera, as urbanization increases, you know, elephants and those larger creatures are butting heads with humans, let alone up in Darwin with crocodiles, you know, uh, the wolves in, in parts of America where they’ve helped the wol, it’s.
[00:11:46] That like it’s right here. It, it’s, it’s almost like we have blink or those in this field have some blinkers on. They’re so excited about the prospect that something blinds them to this.
[00:11:58] Bastien Llamas: Yeah. I guess we’re talking about, you know, some personal motivations. Maybe there’s, there’s an appeal to it, the scientific appeal to it as well.
[00:12:07] Okay. I mean, the, the fact of leading. Work where you can do something completely new and um, de extincting animal. And this is something that was not on the, on the map a few years ago, simply because technologically methodologically we were limited, but now we may have tools to do it. So of course people would like to test those tools and explore the limits.
[00:12:31] It’s all about part of the discovery process. There’s also an appeal for the general public. No, I mean, especially if you talk about. The Die Wolf. A lot of people have seen Game of Throne on TV or read the Song of Ice and Fire books. They are fascinated by the fact that a species, first, the probably most people didn’t even know that the die wolf existed for real.
[00:12:55] You know, it, it, it’s a fictional character in, uh, in a book. And then suddenly you tell them, well, it was actually a prehistoric animal that got extinct, you know, 11 to 13,000 years ago in North America. And then people are like, oh my God, okay, I didn’t know about that. And now you tell me we could see live d wolves for real roaming on the landscape.
[00:13:16] Or maybe in a Zoom, and this is my problem as well, you know, I mean, what do we do with those animals? Or they’re just going to be show pieces, you know, for, to please, um, a crowd or are they really going to be reintroduced somewhere to play in ecological role without damaging the rest of the theological environment.
[00:13:38] Steve Davis: Um, and we do have so many modern fables. I mean, this does sound like. Jurassic Park with fur.
[00:13:49] It’s
[00:13:50] Bastien Llamas: not like Michael Christian didn’t see that coming, you know, very brilliant point. Who came up with beautiful stories, but he also highlighted all the potential issues. Yeah. The human grid, um, you know, the, the difference between. Doing things, we can, we can do it because we can do it or doing things because we should do it.
[00:14:12] You know, there’s a difference between the two. And we’re talking about judgment here, we’re talking about subjectivity here, opinions, beliefs, uh, values. We are not talking about the actual objective goals of, of science eventually, but of course the two are linked, you know, I mean, there’s, there’s always, I.
[00:14:35] Funding needed to do the science. There’s always, um, a practical outcome that needs to be justified whenever you use, um, money for doing science. So the two of them are very much linked and who is doing science and people, humans with their own. Feelings, emotions, and, and beliefs. Uh, but I, I do agree with HU though that, you know, we do live in a world right now that is quite overpopulated and, you know, many humans are pretty much everywhere and where they’re not anywhere they so have an influence, you know, could be isolated.
[00:15:11] Mining activity, or it could be gigantic, uh, farms, you know, or it could be national parks that are managed by humans. The impact of pollution from the deepest trenches in the oceans to the highest, uh, pigs in the mountains. I mean, humans are everywhere. The impact is felt everywhere. And yes, animals. They try to find, you know, their mission there.
[00:15:35] Um, most of the time the habitat is extremely fragmented. Uh, there’s no corridors between the different spots where you could find animals and those encounters would, might be very unfortunate. In, in, in cases where, of course, you know, I elephants, you know, um, going through villages and creating a ham. Um, most of the time what happens though is that the animals are.
[00:16:00] Probably killed, um, because the behavior now is becoming a threat to, to humans. So it doesn’t solve the problem of yes, doing the populations that are killed because they’re all becoming more and more in contact with humans. And of course, if you start, you know, thinking about that, bringing back to life some species.
[00:16:22] They may not have a place on Earth anymore, but on, on top of that, that may need to share their, these little places left, um, with other animals, that’s going to create some potential issues. Mm-hmm. I, I, it’s, it’s hard for me to be optimistic in this case. Okay. I mean, I’m an optimist by nature, but here I, I’m really.
[00:16:42] I don’t want to focus too much on, on all the, the challenges and the issues, but what I see is really that’s not helping the
[00:16:49] Steve Davis: case. Yeah. Look, I, I wanted to circle back. This might even be a footnote. Yeah. Um, you talked about two things. One, that just the natural curiosity that, that would spur some people on to take this challenge.
[00:17:01] Then you use the beautiful thing. I often refer to, we do things sometimes because we can rather than because we should. There’s an intuition in me. When I think of the, the dodo bird mm-hmm. Uh, when I think of many of, uh, of Australian mega fauna mm-hmm. Uh, samples where it, it seems it was humans. I mean, we just clubbed the dodos to death and ate them.
[00:17:25] Um, and mega fauna, that would’ve been a competition for space and safety. Is the, the one motivation that I would feel would have some ethical value is atonement to apologize to what we’ve done. It still doesn’t get us off the hook for the real world present day ramifications. Is there anything you could reflect on that?
[00:17:51] Because that’s the, the only bastion, dare I say, of, uh, of, of, of rationale for this.
[00:18:00] Bastien Llamas: Yeah, true. Um, of course, what I’m going to say is very personal and I’m, I’m not expecting that everybody is going to share that opinion, but yes, I agree that, um, it, you know, a lot of people, particularly people working in ecology, acknowledge that already that, um, human impact has been.
[00:18:20] Quite important in the extinction of animals over the past few thousand years, and, and it’s accelerating right now, and it, it’s hard to ignore evidence related to that. Okay. I have to say, I mean, if we talk about the megafauna in Australia, um, the debate is still very much out there. You know, the interplay between climate change and, um, impact of, um, human and hunting.
[00:18:48] There, there, there’s a lot of, um, evidence. Like supporting one or the other, or the combination of both. So I’m not too sure we still have a clear understanding of what happened in Australia, the Dodo. Well, this is a very clear picture. Yes. I mean, we have reports of people, you know, saying they were clubbing, those animals there’s, and like rats and, and cats, you know, invading the very niches that the Dodo was occupying.
[00:19:15] And the extinction of those birds was extremely swift and, and, yeah. This hard to deny that he was not human.
[00:19:25] Theme Song: Yes.
[00:19:25] Bastien Llamas: Um, the, the, the fact is, even atoning for that, you know, doesn’t mean that we’re going to change our behaviors. I don’t think humans suddenly are going to as humanity. I mean, you know, as, as all humans together are going to suddenly have.
[00:19:44] Um, an understanding of their impacts and, and do whatever is necessary to revert, um, some, or if not revert at least slow or stop, um, the process of climate change of, you know, extinction of animals, of, uh, the impact that we could have on our natural environments. Thank you. Oh, it would be good if everybody at least had in the back of their mind some thoughts, you know, about how to behave and what to do and what are those little changes that may not impact necessarily us on a daily basis, but still have a major impact globally.
[00:20:24] Um, yeah.
[00:20:25] Steve Davis: Now, thank you for indulging me in that thought experiment. I, uh, some valid points that, that resonate with me. Uh, one thing I probably have skipped over, uh, quickly in wanting to get to these philosophical, like philosophical meat of the question is the technical one. Um, this announcement from Colossal, they de extincted the dire wolf by making about.
[00:20:46] 20 generic edits or thereabouts to gray wolves. Um, can you put this into a, a way that a lay person can understand what was happening here from a scientific standpoint, and could an edited gray wolf ever be a die wolf?
[00:21:04] Bastien Llamas: Yeah. Um, now we’re talking about something that I’m really interested in because. Of course, men, colol has an agenda.
[00:21:14] They have gathered funds, um, and, and their objective is, is to now produce, you know, de extincted, uh, animals. So they will use anything in the power to convince people that what they do is de extinction. But now let’s stick to the facts to really what they announced they did. Uh, through newspaper articles.
[00:21:38] Okay. I’ve not peer reviewed articles, so it’s gonna be, um, difficult for me from a scientific point of view to really assess the information that they have provided, which is very little. But let’s stick to the facts. They have used a gray wolf genome and they have very specifically edited 20 genes. In this particular genome, a genome contains around 19,000 genes.
[00:22:06] Okay? So 20 of those genes, they edited them, so they would look like variation that we observe in the diol here, just, uh, the parenthesis sequencing, the genome of dwarfs is not a simple fit. Okay. I have colleagues here in Adelaide, uh, Kieran Mitchell in particular, who were involved in sequencing the variable genomes for five individuals back in 2021.
[00:22:35] It was very fragmented. I. Um, sequences of the, of those genomes, I mean, you know, just parts of them, but enough to have an idea about, um, genetic diversity present in, in D Wars.
[00:22:49] Steve Davis: I just need to interrupt. When they’re sequencing, they have found some, um, fossil or, or skeleton and they can, yeah, five.
[00:22:59] Bastien Llamas: Skeletal remains.
[00:23:00] Yep. Took the bones extracting the DNA, which is extremely fragmented at this point.
[00:23:04] Steve Davis: Yes.
[00:23:05] Bastien Llamas: And meet with DNA from the environment, like mostly bacterial DNA, but they managed to pull out the diol DNA from that and then sequence it and they assembled parts of the genome of the di of those five di wolves back in 2021.
[00:23:19] Okay.
[00:23:20] Theme Song: Okay.
[00:23:20] Bastien Llamas: And they, they, they had enough information to compare the di wve to existing species of of wolves. Um, gray wolves and, and also other candidates as well, uh, jackals and, and all that stuff. And what they found interestingly is that Di Wolf and Gray Wolf split a while ago, okay? Uh, they actually split 5.7 million years ago.
[00:23:47] Meaning on one side you have a lineage of graywolf evolving, and on the other side you have a lineage of Di Wolf evolving. And for the four, 5.7 million years, there’s been absolutely no interbreeding between the two. So those beasts evolved separately on different continents. So yeah, I mean, Eurasia for the Gray Wolf and then, um, die Wolf in North America.
[00:24:10] And then I never met again to have babies together. Okay. So for 5.47 million years, they evolved differently. D Wolf became those big whoopy canid, um, you know, hypercar, the gray wolves were more adaptable, uh, smaller size, and a diet that was a little bit more diverse, not specialized for big gain basically.
[00:24:36] And this 5.7 million years of, um, evolution on each lineage led to 0.5% differences in the genome. 0.5% sounds very little. Yes. Okay. The size of a genome is, you know, 2.5 billion of those later letters, you know, A to GC, the alphabet of the DNA basically. So that’s 12.5 billion differences there already between gray wolves and di wolves.
[00:25:07] 12.5 million differences. And Ole went to do 20. Changes. Okay. Not 12.5 million, just 20 changes in key genes that are involved, you know, in coat color, in the shape of the skull, uh, the teeth, the shape of the ears. So some traits, okay. That are potentially, you know, die wolf specific. I mean, that’s what we can read from the genome.
[00:25:41] We never saw a a, a live, you know, so what we can infer is from, with what we read in the genome and of course the morphology of the remains that we have, there’s a lot of, uh, skeletal material available in North America of di and nothing more information about the hair color, for example. Okay. We can watch.
[00:26:01] Game of Thrones. Yeah, true. You could. I didn’t know they had the time machine to go and right there, but, right. But so the, the, what I would like to say is that 20 changes out of 20.5 million is nothing. Okay? Yeah. Of course, 2012 0.5 million differences doesn’t mean that it’s 12.5 million meaningful differences.
[00:26:25] Some of those differences might have absolutely no impact. What we call phenotypic impact. So what? The observable consequences of those changes, okay? Mm-hmm. If those changes happen in the gene, there’s a chance that we will observe something. If it’s between genes and there’s a lot of DNA between genes that we don’t really know the function of, then probably not really used anyway.
[00:26:53] 20 jeans that 15 of them are really di wolf specific. For five of them. They went, they took a shortcut. They said, well, in the di wolf we observed that some changes have an impact on coat color. They should have a light coat color. Um, not white. Okay, light coat color is not white. But they went for the modification of five other genes involved in the cut color.
[00:27:20] Um, um. Um, set up or whatever. Um. Simply because the, the mutations they found in the dire wolf in graywolf, they’re also linked to deafness and some other issues. So they didn’t want, at least, you know, they, they had a very ethical approach to, to it. They already sat down and say, okay, we want to introduce those 20 changes in the gray wolf genome.
[00:27:44] We know that some of those changes actually lead to some issues and the animals might not be, have a good quality of life basically. So let’s try and find other genes. Somewhere in a different pathway that leads to cut color. Um, and then we will change those. So there’s five changes that are not in the ol genome.
[00:28:04] Okay. It’s just that we know that we lead to some very similar phenotypes, some very similar ob uh, functional, uh, in outputs. And this is why now they have those white pans. Um, it’s simply because there’s five changes. Were all about, uh, the code color. Wow. So when the changes is nothing in the grand scheme of things, what they have done, they have modified genetically a gray wolf.
[00:28:37] So they have touched, you know, 20 genes in the gray wolf genome, and the product of that is some big wolves, white with a different skull shape. Now if we want to take a, a parallel with human evolution, for example, chimps, chimpanzees and humans split around six to 7 million years. So we’re in the same time range as the die wolf and the gray wolf.
[00:29:07] Let’s say we take a chimp and we introduce 20 changes in the genome of the chain, so it loses. The hair, for example, and the shape of the skull is modified. So the mandibles, for example, look more like what is observable in humans. Would we consider that genetically engineered, uh, team, a human?
[00:29:30] Steve Davis: I think it would be a stretch because it would probably be a stretch until this time.
[00:29:36] The rule of thumb was if it looks like a di wolf and housed like a dire wolf, it’s a die wolf. But when you bring it across to that. Then no, because we’re aware of all the subtle or the profound differences between a chimp and a human.
[00:29:51] Bastien Llamas: Exactly. And so colossal has been playing a little bit on the concept of species.
[00:29:58] There’s years, hundreds of years of debates around the concept of species. And what they use is really the morphological species concept. Where exactly what you just said, you know, if it looks like it. Then it should be it. There’s also other species concepts related to genetics or the different, the genetic differences between species, but also the concept of integrating and having fertile of springs.
[00:30:32] So they are biological barriers that prevent interbreeding between species. And sometimes there may be some offspring. But like the mule, for example, between pulse and donkeys. But these offsprings are going to be sterile so they won’t be able to reproduce. Um, further that concept of species is the most well used in biology because it has a functional meaning.
[00:31:01] Okay. I mean, if you’re not able to reproduce with another species, and if they are spring, if they are born unable to, uh, reproduce themselves, then it’s probably because you have two biological entities that should remain or that will remain separate for from their own. Here what we have is a gray wolf disguised as a dire wolf, and if you put them together again, there’s a very high likelihood that they’re going to reproduce.
[00:31:31] And given the fact that we have mostly gray wolves around and just three di wolves, what’s gonna happen is that there’s going to be a dilution of these 20 mutations introduced in in the di wolves, and then we end up with gray wolves again. Basically.
[00:31:46] Steve Davis: Wow. I mean, there is a certain leader on the world stage at the moment who believe if you say it enough and you say it strongly over and over again, it becomes true.
[00:31:56] I guess it doesn’t work in science.
[00:32:00] Bastien Llamas: Um, it, uh, unfortunately it may work. I mean, the scientists will, will see it through it, but the general population, we might not be necessarily, um, aware of, you know, those. Little debates that we have between scientists. I mean, they might just swallow it all and then. Uh, you know, the power of dreams is, is great.
[00:32:25] I mean, the idea of having de extinct, de extincting the animals roaming around again is very appealing. I mean, if you told me that we could have a mammoth tomorrow, I would probably be part of the first one to want to see it. Okay. I’m human. So of course there’s an appeal to it. And, and yes, I mean, like you say, if we hammer the point hard enough, um, then there’s these subjective opinions that, you know, people can be convinced easily by other people who have, I don’t know, convincing arguments to, to make them believe in things.
[00:33:07] Uh, look, I mean, what I see is that beyond. You know, this issue for me around the, the, the concept of de extinction, but also what we call the extincted, um, animal. There’s a lot of science happening in the background that is absolutely fascinating. I. Okay. I mean, the, the Collosal has been working really hard on developing those methods, uh, and push really the boundary of what can be done in terms of reproductive biology.
[00:33:37] For example, assisting, you know, um, people to have healthy babies is, is. It’s a great goal, okay. Um, for people who are struggling to, to, to have babies and the technology that, uh, cholesterol is using, not necessarily the genetic engineering parts of it, but all the aspects of introducing genetic material into, uh, an egg and then making sure that that egg is going to, uh, develop into an embryo.
[00:34:06] And then finally. Um, into, um, a, a young, um, animal or, or a baby. This is fantastic. Okay. This could help a lot of people. Maybe some of the genetically, uh, genetic engineering methods they use could be also used to cure some diseases or, you know, we could tackle cancer in some cases, maybe, or who knows? I mean, the, the prospects are, are enormous.
[00:34:34] Okay. But of course man, whether they’re going to be willing to share this. Yeah, technologies with the rest of the scientific community is another problem. Most of the techniques they develop are proprietary and they’re probably going to hang on to them for quite a while before it’s shared with the rest of the community.
[00:34:54] Meaning that in the meantime, there’s a lot of other scientists probably working on the very same things and probably using taxpayer money to develop the very same tools. Um, and this is where I’m may have some issues if you want. Yeah. You know.
[00:35:09] Steve Davis: I mean, I don’t, I don’t want to just weigh in and malign colossal, but if we, if, if there was some good stuff from their science that could help cancer, I couldn’t help but think cynically.
[00:35:20] If we look at what they’ve done with dire wolves is they’ve got some genes that make the symptoms of cancer disappear. But the cancer still there. That’s the equivalence that seems to be, um, however, there’s actually a more profound aspect to this that really pricked me when my daughters were, you know, a bit excited, especially about the mammoth.
[00:35:38] Even more so than the wolf. Um, and they were just assuming would be in zoos. Uh, so that’s one step for some sort of logic, I suppose, is there’s a chance that if we don’t think critically about these stories, the average person will say, oh. We don’t have to worry about these new stories about different creatures becoming extinct ’cause science can just make new ones.
[00:36:02] And right back in the beginning, you talked about some of our natural human tendencies that have developed of being a bit self-focused and not thinking about the long-term consequences of what we do, the damage we do to the environment, et cetera. Uh, that’s where IW worry about the fun of this story is, is it poisoning the well, so to speak when it comes to thinking about our responsibility we still have to this planet?
[00:36:31] Bastien Llamas: Yeah, true. I mean, definitely there’s, we have already documented a lot of. You know, our impact on the planet. Uh, I mean, species are dwindling. The number of species are dwindling, but within species, the number of individuals is also dwindling. The, um, habitat has been heavily modified in many places around the world.
[00:36:52] The climate is changing as well. Um, so we can’t really deny that. And of course, yes, to create new animals, or, sorry, not new animals, but animals that. Have been, you know, living on earth and got extinct and then bring them back to life and put them in a fenced area for the pleasure of a couple of tourists.
[00:37:13] I mean, this is a little bit heartbreaking, to be honest. Uh, instead of tackling the real issues around conservation, biology, and, and, and climate change, colossal has this mission though, of working on. Species that are extremely end danger, like the red wall, for example, where really there’s a couple of dozens animals alive at the moment and there’s, it’s a true conservation biology problem, and they’re trying to think about ways to introduce genetic diversity in this trending population.
[00:37:47] What you need to know is when a population decreases to the point of becoming un most extinct, their genetic, um. Makeup is becoming poorer and poorer as well. So they become very prone to epidemics, potentially, you know, viral infections, but also to some issues related to wind breeding. Um, and the development of the Youngs is going to be impaired if there is any development of the embryo.
[00:38:16] So the idea for them would be to take some gray, uh, red wolves and introduce in the population. Genetic variation that has disappeared over time. We can access that genetic variation through museum samples, for example, um, extract the DNA from those museum samples that mean, okay, what was the, the true genetic diversity of the population, um, generations ago.
[00:38:40] And eventually introduce that again into the, the white population. So they have a chance at expanding their population with a genetic makeup that is healthy if you want. Define healthy. I mean, I’m, I don’t know exactly. We don’t know exactly, but, so that’s, we’re at the end of it, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, we have a population that is on the verge of becoming extinct.
[00:39:04] You have that population to, um, expand again, um, genetically healthy, and then eventually they’re going to, um, survive for a bit longer. Uh, of course man, all the money you invested in genetically engineer, um, red wolf embryo and reintroduce genetically diversity. That’s great. But is there a support as well behind, you know, in terms of allowing that population to expand again, for example?
[00:39:35] Yeah. Offering them ways to, um, live in a natural habitat that is, um, a, a adapted to, to their, um, ecology and behavior. Is there gonna be an impact on the rest of, uh, the ecological communities? Introducing the, the gray wolf in Europe and in North America has shown actually that the ecological system rebounds from a place where it’s not really healthy to a place where it’s much more healthy.
[00:40:06] And then if you leave it in, uh, for long enough, there’s going to be oscillations, okay, between lows and uh, ups, but at least the overall it’s going to. Become, again, a very healthy environment. So maybe the red wolf could play that ecological role. Okay, maybe it could help the, the habitats to just become healthy again, but.
[00:40:31] You know, if you increase the population of red walls, there’s a high chance that they’re going to go and attack, uh, farm animals and the farmers might say something. Think about the in, in Tasmania, it’s part of the project of coastal as well. Okay. To bring back the ine to life and ru pass in, in Melbourne is working hard on that.
[00:40:50] What happens if we bring back the tires into life? It got extinct a hundred years ago for the very reason that the government, the farmers, wanted them dead. What has changed in a hundred years? Are we really ready to have a top predator roaming freely in Tasmanian forests, or even on the Australian continent for that matter where they were as well initially?
[00:41:11] All those questions, you know, are very important to ask before we even start doing things, because otherwise where are we going with that?
[00:41:19] Steve Davis: Yeah. Wow. It’s bad enough having one in the White House. Um, that’s that which is my personal comment. Nothing to do with you. Um, just in closing, I’ve got two last questions, pastorin, if I may.
[00:41:32] One of them is I. And, and not every listener will be aware of this, but if you Google your name, you’ve been pioneering a lot of ancient DNA research techniques here in Adelaide. Is there a way you can give us a taste at a, at a lay person level of what you and the people around you are bringing to this field and, and how it impacts our thinking and understanding of the world?
[00:41:57] Bastien Llamas: Yeah. I mean, the work we’ve been doing at the Australian Center for Encina since the inception okay, since Ala Cooper opened it almost 20 years ago now, was really to, to, to understand past genetic diversity in, in all sorts of organisms. Okay. Mainly mega. So these. Large, uh, animals and humans, um, but also in microbes living in symbiosis with, um, animals and plants and, uh, some environments.
[00:42:28] So our idea was always to use ancient DNA as some sort of snapshot of genetic diversity through time, right? Something that you don’t need to infer from what you observe today. Uh, you go straight back in time. Find the, um, remains that are, um, going to provide the DNA. Sequence it, understand the genetic diversity in that particular place at that particular time, and then reconstruct the puzzle through time.
[00:42:57] Okay. And have an understanding for the impact of, um, interactions between organisms, interaction between organisms and the environment in interaction between, uh, impact of climate change, et cetera, et cetera. So, most of our work has always been going there. We were not working. Words, you know, resurrecting all de extincting animals, right?
[00:43:20] But certainly provided enough information to understand the past relationships between. The live world and the, I mean, anything in the natural world, basically. Um, what is living and what is not living impact of climate, impact of environmental change, impact of, um, migrations of, um, animals and interactions between praise and predators, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:43:47] Steve Davis: And, and have, do you, have you seen any trends? Has our genetic diversity been decreasing over time? Increasing, uh, going up and down? Especially if we just looked at South Australia or the Australian, I. Continent. Does it give us any sense of that? Um, ’cause I, I just remember I went up to Winton in Queensland where there was a dinosaur stampede.
[00:44:11] There’s all these fossil, all these dinosaurs around this big water source. Uh, professor Flint even has a song about it. Um, and I just fascinated by how much life that area must have been teaming with. In my popular guesswork, you would see this for real.
[00:44:28] Bastien Llamas: Yeah, I mean, you don’t need to use genomics for that really.
[00:44:30] You can use just paleontology, archeology, you know, to look at the remains of those past, um, animals and humans and understand that the density. Of those populations was certainly higher, uh, in the past. Uh, what we observe in, in, in using genetic information is eventually we can quantify a little bit more or have, um, maybe some understanding about the processes involved in the adaptation of animals and humans and the evolution through time.
[00:45:03] But you don’t need genetic for understanding that. The size of some of those white populations was much higher, um, in, in the past, but define the past and define much higher as well, because the past is can be quite long. Okay. And populations have appeared than gone. Um, over time. There’s been many ways of extinction.
[00:45:28] There’s been many variations in terms of population sizes of all sorts of organisms on earth. Um, this process is. A natural process and climate change is also a natural process. It’s just that lately the impact of humans has been. Exacerbating the natural processing. Okay. And what would take, you know, hundreds of years or thousands of years, um, without human intervention?
[00:45:56] So then it takes only a couple of decades, and this is the concern. Okay? This is why we talk about the Anthropocene. This is why we talk about the constantly, about the impact of humans on climate and, and the living world. It’s because lately, uh, humans have. Taken over the world, I would say like overalls and that just di dictate precisely what’s happening.
[00:46:22] And it’s not going in a way where diversity is a result. We all, we have a tendency to, to decrease the, this diversity in terms of living organisms. And that is unprecedented. You know, mean we, wow. The impact of one species over the rest of the world is totally unprecedented.
[00:46:45] Steve Davis: Gee, if I used a car analogy, it’s like taking some of the shock, shock absorbers that your car has and gradually reducing and reducing and reducing them, and you just hope you don’t hit a big rock.
[00:46:58] Bastien Llamas: Yeah, exactly. It’s, um, a slow motion, um, train wreck that we’re observing at the moment.
[00:47:05] Steve Davis: I, I will, one, one observation with this interview and also when you are on this medical life. I love how you and you are similar to many other people in science. I met you, defer to your other colleagues and other disciplines when it’s outside your field and I.
[00:47:18] I just wish more of us would have that humility of speaking where we have some expertise and deferring to others what we don’t. I just make that an observational point. In closing, bastion, I, I, since 2013, the Adelaide Show. We’ve tried to maintain a pro-science and evidence-based approach in in how we talk about topics.
[00:47:39] In light of my girls being in commas, like many of us sucked in by this story. What is a rule of thumb that you would give us to use to equip us when we hear headline grabbing stories about any sort of scientific claims? Is there a process of thinking that you apply or that. Uh, the rest of us could apply just to keep on the straight and narrow.
[00:48:05] Bastien Llamas: Yeah. Um, and, you know, I’m the first one to be wowed by those headlines. Okay. I mean, I think you need, you need to let it go. Um, at first you need to be amazed. Um, you need to be curious. You need to be dreaming a little bit. But then once that first phase is over, you need to sit down a little bit and think of it.
[00:48:31] Are about really what the information is about. Um, the headline is going to grab your attention. This is what it’s there for. Um, and then you start reading the article and then you, you can use a little bit of your own, you know, critical, um, thinking to cruize a little bit what the information is about, and then think about.
[00:48:52] The consequences of, of what is announced, you know, I mean, ethically and, um, and, and other ways. I guess we, we all, we all, you know, keen to hear stories. Uh, storytelling is part of human history and at some, at the same time, we, we are responsible for thinking a bit harder about those stories and then eventually.
[00:49:21] Sometimes say, I do not believe that. You know, I’m keen to believe, I’m really, really keen to believe, but in essence, I don’t believe it. Please convince me. Please find arguments that are really going to convince me, but at the same time, I’m going to find counter arguments to push you. Okay? And, and really make sure that what I read, what I hear, um, I’m not going to believe a hundred percent of it.
[00:49:49] So I guess we’re responsible for that and it’s easy. Okay. You don’t need education for that. You don’t need knowledge for that. Asking why, how for what. Those questions are very valid and, and help, you know, bringing the discussion forward.
[00:50:08] Steve Davis: Wow. Okay. I’ll see if I can hold myself to that standard as we, as we come.
[00:50:14] Um,
[00:50:14] Bastien Llamas: it’s really hard. Look, I mean, I, I, yes, I’m a specialist, you know, in, in some domains of science, but I’m also an ignorant in so many of the other aspects of science, even my own discipline. Okay? I don’t know everything, but, uh, uh, yeah. So. Uh, as long as you acknowledge that and you accept it, um, and you are curious to push forward and, and learn more, and, you know, go where the knowledge is, then I guess it’s probably a very positive way of, of acting.
[00:50:47] Steve Davis: If I quote from Game of Thrones, a mind needs books, like a sword needs a wet stone if it’s to keep its edge.
[00:50:56] Bastien Llamas: Yeah, and let’s, let’s try and do that then.
[00:51:00] Steve Davis: Uh, associate professor, Basian yamas, thank you again for being part of the Adelaide Show Podcast.
[00:51:07] Bastien Llamas: Thank you very much. Bye.
[00:51:17] Theme Song: And now it’s time for the musical pilgrimage.
[00:51:22] Steve Davis: In the musical pilgrimage, we’re gonna listen to a song called Rumble Rumble by Professor Flint. Now if you haven’t had children in the last 15 years, uh, you may not be aware that Professor Flint is a superstar. In, uh, the worlds of small people who love dinosaurs and some adults too.
[00:51:40] Uh, this song is a song about the Permian extinction. It’s known as the Great Dying in which 96% of all life was wiped out on this planet. This, you know, event, if you think about it, it reminds us of just how fragile nature is. Just how impermanent. All things are, but it also reminds us that there is resilience to be found in nature.
[00:52:07] I. Now, of course, nature runs to the beat of its own drum. It took nature millions of years to recover, given the chance and time it was able to recover. And then of course we went in to the wonderful age of dinosaurs. What biodiversity there? How fantastic. Um, as Michael Mills, the alter ego of Professor Flint or is the other way around, he points out that.
[00:52:32] You know what? Sometimes it is the death of some that allows for the evolution of others that comes through in the song. Uh, we’ll play that in two seconds, just a little bit of an update. ’cause Michael Mills is a friend of the program. We have, uh, talked about him, talked with him. We’ve also interviewed Professor Flint a few times.
[00:52:51] And this is really interesting. At the moment we’ve got the media doing the round saying, oh, these dire wolves have been brought back from extinction. They are de extinct. Um, the company’s then working on mammoths, mammoths next, uh, however, um. There is actually someone who’s getting popularity by staying true to the science, and that’s Michael Mills in his work.
[00:53:15] So the singing paleontologist, professor Fi going to the uk, he’s been invited to perform at Lyme Regis Fossil Festival, which is making history the first Aussie to ever grace that stage. But not only that, he’s sharing the story of Mary Ning. Uh, the pioneering fossil hunter who called Lyme Regis home.
[00:53:38] And between his festival performances, he’s gonna be taking his show to the Chena Science Festival, even London’s prestigious geological society. But that’s not all that’s brewing in Michael’s world Through, uh, heaps good. One of his organization, he scored a Commonwealth National Science Week grant, one of only two South Aussies ever to do so, and that will be supporting.
[00:53:59] A band called the Ammonites, an all female dinosaur loving super group. They’re going on tour across South Australia, Western Australia, and Northern Territory this August. And if that wasn’t enough, Michaels launched Heaps Good Music, which is an Aria affiliated record label that’s supporting local talent.
[00:54:18] It’s just, you know what he does? He brings together science, storytelling, music in a way that makes you sit up and listen. Sometimes even laugh. So have a listen to this song. Now, to finish off this fascinating episode, this is Professor Flint with Rumble Rumble
[00:54:37] Professor Flint: Munched on a fern. She rested a while as the wind did blow.
[00:54:43] Then something stared in her Permian brain as she heard the sounds of a rumbling volcano.
[00:54:55] Rumble rumble. It did go that mountain of fire, that enormous volcano rumble
[00:55:06] as the clouds of smoke and.
[00:55:18] A sign D was deep in a hole for an accident. Hit in about below the sounds of smoke. They got larger each day for a, first it was one and then a thousand volcano.
[00:55:43] Enormous volcanoes. They did go as the clouds off smoke and the flow.
[00:56:00] Gold ran and he ran. The sky was on fire and the was, he ran as fast his legs. And another volcano
[00:56:19] round ball. They go those mountains of fire. Those enormous volcanoes, round ball around they go as the clouds of smoke and the
[00:56:37] go, those mountains of fire. Those enormous volcano. They did go as the clouds of smoke and the LA flowed Rumble. Rumble. They did go those mountains of fire. Those enormous volcano. Rumble. Rumble. They did go. As the clouds of smoke and the lava flow, they did go those mountains of fire. Those enormous volcanoes.
[00:57:15] They did go as the clouds of smoke and the lava flow
[00:57:30] Steve Davis: rumble rumble. Professor Flint, and that’s the program. I hope you learned a lot from it and gave you food for thought and also food for conversations when you get stuck with people who are swearing black and blue, that the mammoth is about to be de extinct. We all know better than that right now. Until next episode, it’s goodnight from me, Steve Davis.
[00:57:55] Goodnight Don.
[00:57:58] AJ Davis: The Adelaide Show Podcast is produced by my dad, Steve Davis. If you want to start a podcast or get some help producing creative content. Talk to him. Visit steve davis.com au. Thanks, aj. I’m Caitlin Davis and I agree with everything my sister said, but there’s one more thing to say. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating or a review ’cause that will make my dad really happy.
[00:58:29] Oh, and one more thing. If you really, really liked it, please help a friend put the Adelaide Show on their phone. Thanks for listening.
[00:58:43] Buzz buzz,
[00:58:57] Theme Song: bad lady. The.